Anonymous
Anonymous asked in Society & CultureReligion & Spirituality · 1 decade ago

Questions for Jews regarding the suffering servant in Isaiah 52 & 53...?

Who was Isaiah addressing this passage to?

If he was addressing those passages to the Israelites, then how can the Israelites also be the suffering servant?

Especially in regards to these verses:

3 He was despised and rejected by men,

a man of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.

Like one from whom men hide their faces

he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

4 Surely he took up our infirmities

and carried our sorrows,

yet we considered him stricken by God,

smitten by him, and afflicted.

5 But he was pierced for our transgressions,

he was crushed for our iniquities;

the punishment that brought us peace was upon him,

and by his wounds we are healed.

6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,

each of us has turned to his own way;

and the LORD has laid on him

the iniquity of us all.

I understand the whole "pierced" vs "lion" stuff...that's not what I'm interested in. I have a copy of the JPS Tanakh at home. What I'm wondering is how the servant can be Israel if the servant is to bear the sins of Israel.

Update:

@ Cindy....But how do you know that there isn't a "suffering Messiah"? Where do you come up with your claims?

Update 2:

@ Jewish Accountant....It's easier just to cut-and-paste from biblegateway.com

Get over yourself.

10 Answers

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  • DS M
    Lv 6
    1 decade ago
    Best answer

    1. Let's quote the Hebrew scriptures since this is a Jewish question

    JEWISH PUBLICATION

    SOCIETY BIBLE

    http://www.hareidi.org/bible/Isaiah53.htm#1

    1 'Who would have believed our report? And to whom hath the arm of HaShem been revealed? 2 For he shot up right forth as a sapling, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness, that we should look upon him, nor beauty that we should delight in him. 3 He was despised, and forsaken of men, a man of pains, and acquainted with disease, and as one from whom men hide their face: he was despised, and we esteemed him not. 4 Surely our diseases he did bear, and our pains he carried; whereas we did esteem him stricken, smitten of G-d, and afflicted. 5

    But he was wounded because of our transgressions, he was crushed because of our iniquities: the chastisement of our welfare was upon him, and with his stripes we were healed. 6 All we like sheep did go astray, we turned every one to his own way; and HaShem hath made to light on him the iniquity of us all.

    According to the Hebrew scriptures, you translation is accurate and those who don't want to source their translations do so to speak freely in ignorance or deception.

    2. allonyoav said: ***Tell you what- when the Mashiach comes and actually fulfills the Messianic prophecies, we will believe that he is the mashiach....So when there is world peace, an end to poverty, disease and suffering, an end to war, the Temple is rebuilt and the sacrificial service reinstated, the Jews seen a spriests to the rest of the world, the dead are resurrected etc- then we will believe the person is the Mashiahc.***

    So when

    1. ***when there is world peace / an end to war***

    mankind has learned how to get along with each for the first time, ever, in history.

    2. ***an end to poverty,***

    mankind has the will to both:

    A. Slow reproduction,

    B. Give to those in needs,

    3. ***disease***

    Provide the funding to find the cures of diseases caused by

    A. Bacteria To Human

    B. Virus To Human

    C. Fungi To Human

    D. Protozoa To Human

    E. Mutlicellular Parasites Flatworms

    F. Mutlicellular Parasites Roundworms

    G. Pathogenicity

    4. ***and suffering***

    A. Mental illness

    B. Depression

    C. Arthritis

    5. ***the Temple is rebuilt***

    Which means the Muslims have to leave first.

    6. ***the sacrificial service reinstated***

    Means their lineage has to be provable and proven to Aaron.

    7. ***Jews seen a spriests to the rest of the world*** Wow!

    8. *** the dead are resurrected etc- then we will believe the person is the Mashiahc***

    Has anyone calculated what would actually have to occur before the Messiah could arrive. The discovery of the cures of diseases that don't currently exist is enough to logically conclude that the Messiah can never return if this happen first.

    3. There have been others in history that Jews have claimed to be the Messiah. These are important to determine what has to occur before a person can be seen as the Jewish Messiah.

    ***On the fifth anniversary of his death, Schneerson's presence has not diminished, but one question has divided the Lubavitch community: Is he or isn't he the messiah?***

    http://www.rickross.com/reference/lubavitch/lubavi...

    In the article it listed all the reasons for believing Schneerson was/is the messiah. This is the true list of what the messiah needs for Jews to follow him as Messiah.

    Jesus exceeds the list of conditions applied to Schneerson. More importantly, the Spirit of God bears witness to Jesus being the Messiah revealed in scripture.

    Hope this helps

    Source(s): Converted Messianic Jew
  • 1 decade ago

    If you have any serious interest in understanding how Jews read this passage, you might like to look at http://home.att.net/~fiddlerzvi/Isaiah53.html By identifying the 'speaker' of the various verses, the identity of the 'suffering servant' becomes abundantly clear. Read the whole thing - it's good textual analysis. Isaiah may be the writer but he's reporting what G-d is saying, what the foreign kings are saying etc.

    I don't understand your comment to Cindy. What do you mean "where do you come up with your claims?" ? Cindy has simply informed you about a 3500 year old Jewish approach to the whole notion of the moshiach (messiah). It's not about 'suffering'. The adulation of suffering is an entirely Christian notion, as is the idea that the moshiach is divine. That's SUCH a non-Jewish concept!!

  • Anonymous
    1 decade ago

    "What I'm wondering is how the servant can be Israel if the servant is to bear the sins of Israel."

    Me too. Israel is always referred to as she & her, yet Isaiah continually refers to the suffering servant as "he". That would be "He" as in Jesus Christ.

    Very good question indeed.

  • Anonymous
    1 decade ago

    answer: Because that is not prophecy about the Jewish Messiah. That's clearly talking about Israel and her people when they turn from G-d and His prophets.

    Why would prophecy focus on a "suffering Messiah" - all the prophecies focus on what he will ACCOMPLISH, not on how he gets there or accomplishes it.

    That's the difference between Christianity and Judaism - the concept of the messiah. Jews don't obsess about it. They hope every generation to see the messiah but don't wait around. They focus on helping to repair the world to make it better for when he appears.

    The concept of a "suffering" servant/messiah is only a focus because of the execution of Jesus and verses were back engineered or mistranslated.

    The messiah won't be known because of his suffering, he'll be known when there is world peace and he is NOT worshiped nor will he require a "second coming" to accomplish anything.

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  • 1 decade ago

    The Hebrew word Yisrael refers to both the land Israel and the people Israel. In this case it refers to the people Israel before being conquered and exiled to Babylon (586 BCE). Prophesies included in the Hebrew Bible are about *past* events, not about events 2500 years in the future! Did you notice the use of the PAST TENSE?

    3 Israel was despised and rejected by men,

    a people of sorrows, and familiar with suffering.

    Like one from whom men hide their faces

    he was despised, and we esteemed him not.

    4 Surely Israel took up our infirmities

    and carried our sorrows,

    yet we considered him stricken by God,

    smitten by him, and afflicted.

    5 But Israel was pierced for our transgressions,

    he was crushed for our iniquities;

    the punishment that brought us peace was upon him, and by his wounds we are healed.

    6 We all, like sheep, have gone astray,

    each of us has turned to his own way;

    and the LORD has laid on him

    the iniquity of us all.

    If Jesus is considered to have been a sacrifice for your sins, he could not have been "pierced for our transgressions, he was crushed for our iniquities." You will note in the Hebrew Bible that all sacrifices must be WITHOUT BLEMISH!

    .

  • 1 decade ago

    Your ques: "What I'm wondering is how the servant can be Israel if the servant is to bear the sins of Israel."

    Because the one who sins bears the suffering of their sins.

    That re-emphasizes, that the verse is read well as saying the suffereing servant (of God) is Israel. And that servant will bear the suffering from it's sins.

    Also, you need to use the one from your Tanakh. You've got the changed one in OT which uses "he" in a lot of places the original Hebrew doesn't. Why did you post from OT to ask Jews? We don't use OT, we used Tanakh.

    ---

    The idea of a suffering servant & sacrifice for someone else's sins, so violates so much of Tanakh, that it makes not sense to invent such a concept, within Judaism.

    ==========================

    Okay you've lost my respect. How do you have the nerve to rant at someone because you have the nerve to use a mistranlsation & the wrong religion's book --- to demand answers?

    Your lack of respect for others is the first place you need to look for your messiah.

    As for cut &paste easier. Okay, get over yourself - there are at least 4 excellent translated versions of Tanakh online you could have pasted from.

    Maybe next time, be aware, don't hate Jews enough to treat them so poorly, & say "gee sorry I used an OT version' but question still stands.

    Goodness, I really wonder about people who say their goal is to be Christ-like, but treat others so un-that way.

    (Though I will say "bastardized" isn't the best PR, to those who don't know what we're talking about. Still she did peg you correctly.)

    Source:

    A Jew who likes & respects herself.

    =======================================

    Scheerman

    That was resolved within a short few years of the funeral. In intense grief some folks couldn't let go. There is no follow of him as messiah at this point.

    Messanic "Jews" are Christians

    with so much distain for Judasim & Jews, that they use our name to try to more easily fool us into converting...and put down our religion & it's beliefs. Watch as their answers do that. They were called Hebrew Christians till '70s & 98% were never Jews, that other % is now a Messanic Believer, ie. believer in Christ, i.e Christian.

    I Block

    In Hebrew a group referred to which has male & female members is gramatically done with male format.

  • Anonymous
    1 decade ago

    Fantastic question, even the most well read Jew's have a problem discerning this because of Barabbas.

    ZECHARIAH 8:9

    Thus saith the LORD of hosts; Let your hands be strong, ye that hear in these days these words by the mouth of the prophets, which [were] in the day [that] the foundation of the house of the LORD of hosts was laid, that the temple might be built.

    ISAIAH 49:7

    Thus saith the LORD, the Redeemer of Israel, [and] his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the LORD that is faithful, [and] the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.

    DANIEL 5:11

    There is a man in thy kingdom, in whom [is] the spirit of the holy gods; and in the days of thy father light and understanding and wisdom, like the wisdom of the gods, was found in him; whom the king Nebuchadnezzar thy father, the king, [I say], thy father, made master of the magicians, astrologers, Chaldeans, [and] soothsayers;

    ZECHARIAH 12:10

    And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for [his] only [son], and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for [his] firstborn.

    HOSEA 6:2

    After two days will he revive us: in the third day he will raise us up, and we shall live in his sight.

    Source(s): holy Bible
  • Anonymous
    1 decade ago

    Because according to Judaism, it is by how the Gentiles have treated the Jews, that God will judge the Gentiles.

    Which doesn't bode well for quite a lot of Gentiles.

    P.S. you probably already know that there is no such thing as a suffering messiah in Judaism. He doesn't suffer, he doesn't die for anyone's sins, he has nothing to do with anyone's salvation (concept doesnt exist in Judaism), and he doesn't go through anything like what the new testament has Jesus going through. Completely, totally, different.

    EDIT: they aren't "claims". it's JUDAISM. It is the Christians who need to be asking where they themselves came up with these ideas of suffering messiahs, and virgin human blood sacrifices for sin, and all the rest. Because what I wrote is what Judaism has always had, long before there were Christians or a new testament.

    If you would like to learn more, please visit Jewfaq.org for starters, many of your questions can be answered there.

    Source(s): Judaism. Remember guys, it's a Jewish book and has been for almost 4000 years. God gave the meanings of everything in it, in person, to the Jews on Mt. Sinai. Gentiles do NOT know better than Jews what it says and means.
  • Anonymous
    1 decade ago

    Isaiah is speaking of the coming Messiah. Read it in that context and it'll make perfect sense.

  • Anonymous
    1 decade ago

    If you have a Tanakh at home, why aren't you quoting from it and not that bastardized Bible of yours?

    Why do I need to explain your text to you? Not being mean, just trying to prove a point. That's like asking Ptolemy to teach you about how the world is flat!

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