Anonymous
Anonymous asked in Society & CultureReligion & Spirituality · 9 years ago

Does 1 John 5:7 refute the Jehovah's Witnesses' claim about the Triune GOD isn't biblical?

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." --1 John 5:7 (KJV)

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  • Anonymous
    9 years ago
    Favourite answer

    Greetings,

    Many Trinitarians cite 1Jn. 5:7. But, the Trinitarian phrase is not found in any modern translations. This is a typical Trinitarian "proof" text, all of which are known to be spurious(1Tim.3:16; 1Jn.5:7).

    So as usual, any negative criticism of the Witnesses and their beliefs requires us to ignore even the slightest research as seen by these quotes:

    "In the opinion of nearly all critics and most catholic writers of the present day the words were not contained in the original text."—The Westminster Version of the Sacred Scriptures

    "Reliance [to prove the trinity] it is held by many competent critics, is not to be placed upon the passages in Ac. 20:28 and 1Tim. 3:16. And 1Jn. 5:7 is commonly regarded as spurius."—Unger's Bible Dictionary; 118b

    "Citing texts where the reading and punctuation are doubtful, or where the evidence of interpolation is overwhelming, (such as 1Jn. 5:7) is harmful to valid argument....as in the case of 1Jn. 5:7 the evidence of interpolation is overwhelming..."—M.S. Terry; Biblical Hermeneutics; 590,172,130

    "These words are rejected by the general verdict of critical authorities."—Vincent; Word Studies

    "To maintain the genuineness of this passage is impossible."—Scrivener

    The evidence of every kind is consistent and clear: the disputed words of I John 5:7 have no claim as an original part of John's letter, but were introduced into Greek from Latin in the very late Middle Ages.

    "These words first appear in the writings of a Spanish Christian leader named Priscillian, who was executed for heresy in A.D. 385. Later they made their way into copies of the Latin Bible. When Erasmes refused to include them in his Translation unless he could be shown a Greek manuscript, one was produced which was less than 20 years old. So in his 1522 edition he included them."—F.F. Bruce; History of the Bible in English; 141

    A footnote in The Jerusalem Bible, a Catholic translation, says that these words are "not in any of the early Greek manuscripts, or any of the early translations, or in the best MSS of the Vulgate itself."

    To date, out of five thousand Greek manuscripts, this passage has been found in only four Greek manuscripts:

    Manuscript # - Date

    61 – 1520 AD

    2318 - 1592 AD

    629 - 14th -16th century

    918 - 16th century

    Thus the earliest the passage appears as part of the *Greek* text is in 16th century, most likely in the manuscript falsified to convince Erasmus.

    Also, an excellent source of proof attaining to the falsehood of this verse is from the arguments over the divinity of Christ in the fourth century. During all these arguments none of the Greek Fathers ever quoted this verse as Scripture in order to prove the trinity. If these words in existence then it would have been the number one verse!

    None of the four Greek manuscripts which contain the disputed words gives the Greek text exactly as it appears in printed Greek NTs, and all 4 manuscripts give clear evidence that these words were translated from Latin into Greek.

    The evidence of every kind is consistent and clear: the disputed words of I John 5:7 have no claim as an original part of John's letter, but were introduced into Greek from Latin in the very late Middle Ages.

    So, the REAL question is: "Why is it that that EVERY major spurious text was inserted by Trinitarians in a desperate attempt to support their theology. And, why is EVERY Trinitarian "proof text" spurious? (Rev. 22:18!).

    Every explicit scripture shows that at every point of his existence Jesus has a God over him and he was less than Almighty God (Mic.5:2-4; Jn. 14:28; 20:17; Mk.13:32; Rm.15:6; Rev.3:2,12). At the highest position he will ever attain, Jesus is still "subject" to *GOD* the same way we are "subject" to him (1Cor.15:27,28).

    The only way someone can believe that Jesus is Almighty God is to ignore the clear, explicit statements of God's Word and accept incorrect interpretations based on ignorance of the facts.

    Yours,

    BAR-ANERGES

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  • Elijah
    Lv 7
    9 years ago

    Even Trinitarians admit that 1 John 5:7 in the KJV is spurious.

    For instance, highly respected trinitarian scholar, minister (Trinity Church), Professor (University of Glasgow and Marburg University), author (The Daily Study Bible Series, etc.), and Bible translator Dr. William Barclay states the following about this passage:

    Note on 1 John 5:7

    "In the Authorized Version [KJV] there is a verse which we have altogether omitted [in Barclay's NT translation]. It reads, "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word and the Holy Ghost; and these three are one."

    "The Revised Version omits this verse, and does not even mention it in the margin, and none of the newer translations includes it. **It is quite certain that it does not belong to the original text**."

    But even if it wasn't spurious, 1 John 5:7 would still not mean the three are the one God as trinitarians want. The word for "one" here is in the neuter form, hen, which cannot mean "one God" since "God" is always in the masculine form in NT Greek, and grammatically adjectives (such as "one") applied to it must also be masculine (heis, masculine form). When the neuter "one" (hen) is applied to persons, it means "one thing." In other words they have become united in some thing such as "purpose," "will," etc. (John 17:22)

    ---------------------------------------…

    Sadly for Trinitarians, 1 John 5:8 is by far the clearest "Trinitarian" statement in the entire Bible. It is the only one that even mentions "three".

    And *still* the formula of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is absent. Rather, these three "persons" who are equally God are the Spirit, the water, and the blood!

    Therefore, this clearest of trinitarian "proofs" (1 John 5:8) shows "conclusively" that if the Holy Spirit is God, His two equal partners are not Jesus and Jehovah, but the "persons" of "the Holy Water" and "the Holy Blood".

    Certainly such "evidence" is absolutely ridiculous. However, it is an excellent example of how the very best trinitarian "proofs" are tragically worthless. (Jer. 16:19 - KJV, ASV, RSV, NASB, JPS)

    Of course an honest, clear statement of the Trinity Doctrine *would* be:

    "For there are three persons who compose the only true God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. And these three persons are the One God."

    It isn't a difficult statement for anyone to write, let alone an inspired Bible writer. But you will never see even that in the inspired scriptures.

    Additional Reading:

    1 John 5:7 (KJV)

    http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-...

    What About Trinity "Proof Texts"?

    http://examiningthetrinity.blogspot.com/2009/08/1-...

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  • 9 years ago

    User Herugrim wrote: "The Short answer is that yes it does prove that God is a triune. However the long answer is that they won't ever believe it because they have changed their bible to read: "For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." (NWT)"

    That is not correct. The KJV blasphemously added the words "in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one. And there are three that bear witness in earth" to 1 John 5:7, 8 to support the false and unsupportable trinity dogma.

    The NWT renders it correctly.

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  • Jase
    Lv 4
    9 years ago

    There are lots of scripture to support the trinity. 1 John 5:7 is just one of them.

    The Bible teaches that God is one God in three distinct persons: God the father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. This teaching is commonly known as the Trinity - Meaning that God is a "tri-unity" or "three in one." Now let me make it clear that Christians do NOT believe in three Gods. Nor does the bible teach that God is one person who appears in three forms or modes, which is an error. Throughout the concept that God is one God in three distinct persons may be difficult for us to grasp, it is what the scripture clearly teaches.

    One God, Three Persons

    First, the Bible teaches that God is one

    Deuteronomy 6:4

    Hear , O Israel: The LORD our God is one LORD:

    Isaiah 45:22

    Look unto me, and be ye saved , all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

    The Bible clearly teaches that there are not three Gods, but one true God. However, Scripture also teaches that there are a plurality of persons in the Godhead.

    God the Father is

    God - Phil 1:2

    Creator - Gen 1:1

    Eternal - Psalm 90:2

    God the Son is

    God - John 1:1; Romans 9:5; Col 2:9; Tit 2:13; Heb 1:5-13

    Creator - John 1:3, Col 1:16

    Eternal - John 8:58; Ex 3:14

    God the Holy Spirit is:

    God - Acts 5:3-4

    Creator - Job 33:4, Job 26:13

    Eternal - Heb 9:14

    This teaching that all three persons in the triune Godhead are One God but three distinct persons, is seen throughout scripture:

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. (John 1:1-2)

    we are told here that Jesus Christ - The Word of God- was "with God" in the beginning. If I said, "I am with my wife," you would not think I was saying that "I am my wife." In the same way, we can clearly see s distinction in John 1:1 between the Father and the Son. However, John also tells us that the Word "was God," so clearly He is the same God while at the same time being a distinct and separate person.

    1 John 5:7 KJV

    For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

    John 1:1 KJV Jesus is the Word

    In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

    To answer your question Matthew 4:10 the answer is no. Its even in the NIV Jeremiah 17:13 LORD is the water.

    1 John 5:7-8 NIV

    For there are three that testify: 8 the Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

    We have the Spirit, which would be God's Holy Spirit, The Water which is the Father, The blood which is Jesus Christ

    all three are in agreement meaning ONE

    3 persons in ONE GOD

    To answer your question Matthew 4:10 the answer is no, its even in your OWN Bible

    Its even in the NWT Jehovah Witness Bible

    Jeremiah 17:13 NWT

    O Jehovah, the hope of Israel, all those who are leaving you will be put to shame. Those apostatizing from me will be written down even in the earth, because they have left the source of living water, Jehovah.

    1 John 5:8 NWT

    the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement.

    We have the Spirit, which would be God's Holy Spirit, The Water which is the Father, The blood which is Jesus Christ

    all three are in agreement meaning ONE

    3 persons in ONE GOD

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  • 9 years ago

    Check out Matthew 28:19-20:

    19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

    For The Living Waters were at The Right Hand of God and The Power of God to Baptise in The renewing of the minds of peoples in The Light.

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  • 9 years ago

    IF it was a legitimate Scripture, part of the inspired Word of God, it would. BUT since it's a SPURIOUS vs ADDED later on to prove a man made doctrine, in answer to your question it doesn't.

    If this was truly a legitimate vs it would have been no issue for ALL modern translations to use it. It's funny how ONLY the KJV uses this vs and NO other translation uses it. That should tell you something!

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  • Brian
    Lv 5
    9 years ago

    Why is that scripture not worded that way in the NIV Bible?

    1 John 5:7-8

    New International Version (NIV)

    7 For there are three that testify: 8 the[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement.

    Could it be that some Trinitarian "scholar" added to the scriptures in order to support the false notion of a trinity man-god?

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  • 9 years ago

    Hi there..

    1 John 5:7 doesn't refute anything, it is spurious. Those words were not in any pre-14th century biblical manuscripts. Trinitarians had to add them in, as genuine scripture does not support their doctrine. Seems like they were hoping no one would notice.

    The question is, why do some Trinitarians still attempt to use this verse, when even their own scholars reject it?

    "That these words are spurious and have no right to stand in the New Testament is certain in the light of the following considerations.." (UBS)

    "A Latin interpolation, certainly spurious.." (The Expositor's Greek Testament)

    "It is quite certain that it does not belong to the original text...The facts are as follows. First, it does not occur in any Greek manuscript earlier than the 14th century. The great manuscripts belong to the 3rd and 4th centuries, and it occurs in none of them. None of the great early fathers of the Church knew it. Jerome's original version of the Vulgate does not include it." (Dr. William Barclay).

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  • TeeM
    Lv 7
    9 years ago

    Inorder to support the trinity with the bible,

    you must add to God's Word as 1 John 5:7.

    Change the meaning of words. Firstborn doesn't mean oldest offspring or the first to be born, but when applied to Jesus it means "preeminence". "only begotten" doesn't mean beget or cause to exist, but means 'unique'.

    Take scripture out of context. John 10:30. One in this verse means unity of purpose. (Read John Calvin's comments concerning this verse.

    or mistranslate: John 1:1

    Ernst Haenchen, in a commentary on the Gospel of John (chapters 1-6), stated:

    “[the•os´] and [ho the•os´] (‘god, divine’ and ‘the God’) were not the same thing in this period. . . .

    IN FACT, FOR THE . . . EVANGELIST, ONLY THE FATHER WAS ‘GOD’ ([ho the•os´]; cf. 17:3); ‘the Son’ was subordinate to him (cf. 14:28). But that is only hinted at in this passage because here the emphasis is on the proximity of the one to the other . . . . It was quite possible IN JEWISH AND CHRISTIAN MONOTHEISM TO SPEAK OF DIVINE BEINGS THAT EXISTED ALONGSIDE AND UNDER GOD BUT WERE NOT IDENTICAL WITH HIM. PHIL 2:6-10 PROVES THAT. In that passage Paul depicts just such a divine being, who later became man in Jesus Christ . . . Thus, in both Philippians and John 1:1 it is not a matter of a dialectical relationship between two-in-one, BUT OF A PERSONAL UNION OF TWO ENTITIES.”—John 1, translated by R. W. Funk, 1984, pp. 109, 110. (caps by me)

    .

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  • Anonymous
    9 years ago

    YEC - though sarcastic - is correct.

    Appropriately-accredited Biblical language scholars agree that this particular verse - the so-called "Comma Johanneum" - was first added to Bibles several centuries after the authors that wrote the New Testament documents had died.

    So: because 1Jo 5:7 **is** found in several Bible versions, it can be said to be Biblical - technically. However, since it is not an authentic part of the original document, it can more reasonably be argued that it is not Biblical and - therefore - *should* not be used to claim Biblical support of the doctrine of trinity.

    - Jim, http://www.bible-reviews.com/

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  • 9 years ago

    The Short answer is that yes it does prove that God is a triune. However the long answer is that they won't ever believe it because they have changed their bible to read: "For there are three witness bearers, the spirit and the water and the blood, and the three are in agreement." (NWT)

    In order for the KJV scripture to work for the Jehovah's Witness it must first be shown that it is superior to the NWT bible, something that a JW is no willing to accept even though the proof is there.

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