Christians and others... Give me your best shot?
Christians, and other theists, I believe I have heard or read all of the arguments from you as to why I should believe in God. Thus far, none of them are worth the electrons required to display them on my screen. I ask you, do you have anything new? Do you have that one argument or proof that will sway an atheist like me? Before you write something, please make sure you are not just rehashing the old arguments below. (To the non-religious, feel free to add to the list.)
“What if you are wrong?” – Pascal’s Wager. Fail. I could use the same argument for Zeus and Odin.
“The Bible says…” – Circular argument. Fail. The only proof that the Bible is true is that the Bible says it is true. By this reasoning, the Koran and Book of Mormon as also true.
“There is evidence of design…” – Argument from design. Fail. There is no evidence for design. Most of the cited evidence is either a misinterpretation of the findings, lack of education, or outright fabrication.
“Two billions people cannot be wrong…” – Argument from popularity. Fail. The entire world population could believe the moon is made of cheese, but that wouldn't make it happen.
“You cannot explain this...” – Argument from ignorance. Fail. The inability to explain a phenomenon does not point to God; it just means it hasn’t yet been explained. What is more, many of the claims that something cannot be explained are incorrect. (You also have the problems of “God is in the gaps.”)
“I was lost, but now I am found…” – Anecdotal evidence. Fail. Saying, “I prayed and [this] happened” is meaningless on an individual basis. If everyone who prayed had it happen, then you would have something.
“Morality…” - Have you read the Bible? It advocates slavery, rape, child abuse, genocide, etc. Fail. I can find plenty of examples of immoral acts by believers, often done in the name of God. I can also find many examples of non-believers who lead exemplary lives.
“Something cannot come from nothing” – Argument from ignorance, again. Fail. The Big Bang doesn’t say the universe came from nothing.
“You cannot prove God doesn’t exist” – I don’t have to. Fail. You are making the claim that God exists, I simply don’t believe your claims.
“The Ontological Argument…” or “The First Cause Argument” – Both of these are logically flawed and make ridiculous assumptions. But, the bigger issue is that no Christian believe BECAUSE of these arguments, they are just arguments people use to justify what they already believe. Fail.
“I feel God” or “I have faith” – That is nice. But it isn’t a reason for me to believe. Fail.
Laodicea - Actually, it is your job to convince me. Whenever you make the claim that God is real, especially when you claim you version of God is the right one, you take on that responsibility. Also, Christianity is an evangelical religion, which means that its believers are expected to seek converts.
I would also note the tone of your judgement of me is not in keeping with the version of Christ I was taught as a child.
CrownedOne - Thanks for reminding me about the "Evolution is just a theory" argument. I had also indented to include the "Bible prophecy" argument, but forgot.
I suggest you go read up on the term "scientific theory", you will see that gravity and the existence of 'germs' are also theories, and that attacking evolution as theory is a foolish waste of time. The simple truth is that evolution has been vigorously tested for over 100 years. It is the best tested and supported theory in the history of science.
Bible prophecy is also a joke. You only have to look at people like Harold Camping and others to see that. Every year, people try to make predictions based on the Bible, and they are always wrong (or are about as accurate as a horoscope).
Traci - Every day on this site I see the same arguments over, and over, and over again. I just want to see if there is anything new.
I don't know everything, otherwise I wouldn't ask the question.
Pancho - I dispute that what I wrote has the tone and quality of a fundamentalist Christian. EVERY ONE of the arguments I list here are arguments I have seen and heard from Christians. I don't ask people to take my beliefs on faith, I don't tell them they will 'be sorry', I don't lie about the science, I simply point out that all of the standard arguments are failures.
I honestly don't care what people believe. Most of my friends and family are Christians, and we get along just fine. If you want to believe in God... go ahead. But, if you want to tell atheists we should believe in God, you need to come up with new and better arguments.
- AdrenaLynnLv 57 years agoFavourite answer
"You have to have faith to see the evidence!" Is one of my favorites. It's also commonly used to argue the truthfulness of the Bible. "You have to have faith to understand the Bible." Really? I have to believe what I'm reading before I start reading it? I don't sign contracts without reading the fine print, so why would I believe a fictitious book before reading it?
- PanchoLv 77 years ago
Having read your post, I have to say that it's as bigoted as anything I've heard from Fundamentalist Christians - you've already made up your mind about everything - with a few "tweaks" here and there, your post could easily be mistaken for a Christian saying that he refuses to be swayed to atheism. I personally don't give a flying f___ whether you accept the idea of God or not. But I'm responding because your post is of the same tone as Christianity - it's arguing in the same way. You demand proof but it won't be given to you because it doesn't work that way. Reading that line, you will smirk as all atheists do when you refuse to give them something that is not possible to give. You don't investigate anything, that much is clear. I've said that same thing to the rigid, narrow Christians who inhabit this forum all too often. They don't investigate anything - they simply have beliefs. The same is true of you. You're no different - and I essentially responded to say that ...
- 7 years ago
A certain kind of people fascinate me, Knowledge seekers! You may be stubborn and that is a miner hiccup in your quest for knowledge/wisdom. You may also know that arguing with people (humans) is pointes. But a new better topic for any arguing may be related to the fact that some people don't know how to use common knowledge or considering other ways of life. I am a Christian, and I know exactly why ppl see Christians as haters! But For all the close minded people who don't realize we are individual people and we make our own choices whether we are capable of doing so or not. Good luck to you because you have chosen to be a hater as well.
PS. Please don't push your beliefs on me, I have not done so to you!
I hope you continue to use your brain.. :)
- power53Lv 57 years ago
I do not expect to convince anyone that does not want to believe, but I can give you my logic as to why I believe.
Why do I believe in God?
1. I believe in God because Atheism, the only other alternative, cannot be proved. There will always be the POSSIBILITY that God actually exists after all.
2. I believe in God because it is reasonable to believe that the ETERNAL existence is God—not matter. Which is more REASONABLE: (A) that mind or intelligence came from matter, or (B) that matter came from mind or intelligence? Could a house (matter) ever make a builder (mind)? Nobody has ever observed SOMETHING to come from NOTHING, therefore it is reasonable to conclude that SOMETHING has always existed. Is it MIND, or MATTER? I believe that MIND (God) created MATTER, not MATTER just happened to create a MIND. This is reasonable because MIND is superior to MATTER.
3. I Believe in God because the universe exhibits marks of intelligent CAUSATION. When I see a watch, I know there was a watchmaker. I have worked with electricity all of my adult life. What a complex system we have from the turbines and generators, to transmission lines, to numerous substations, to distribution systems, to electric meters, to the household appliances that convert electrical energy back to various home uses. When I see an electric system, I know there was intelligent design. When I see a water system running to all parts of a city, I know there was an intelligent CAUSE. When I see a human body with a system of veins and arteries, (circulatory system), a respiratory system, a digestive system, nervous system, etc., I see an intelligent CAUSE. When I see a Grandfather’s clock that works with mathematical precision, I see a mathematician. When I see the solar system and universe work with mathematical precision, I see the Great Mathematician. It is said that Benjamin Franklin, while in Paris, made a model planetary system showing the earth and the planets nearest it. Many astronomers copied it to use in their studies. One day an atheist friend saw it and asked, “Who made it?” “No one made it,” answered Franklin. “It made itself, it just happened.” “What,” cried the man, “you’re joking.” “And so is the man who says the universe just happened,” replied Franklin. If the universe exhibits design, there must be a GREAT DESIGNER; if it shows thought, there must be a GREAT THINKER; if it is run by the laws of nature, there must be a GREAT LAWGIVER; if it operates with mathematical precision, there must be a GREAT MATHEMATICIAN; if the universe gives us important chemical combinations, there must be a GREAT CHEMIST. Thomas Edison said that the universe is such an engineering feat when he said, “There must be a GREAT ENGINEER”. From these conclusions there is no escape. My conclusion is, “God exists”.
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- CrownedOneLv 57 years ago
I have no proof or evidence outside of experiential evidence. The proof is in the promises of the word of God accurately being fulfilled. Experientially on can test things like the tithe and so on.
Most of the bibles teachings are based in the law of attraction or positive belief. If you fail to believe you defeat yourself.
I know there is absolutely no solid proof of God and which religion iwis accurate, outside of testing it for yourself.
Most of the scientific arguements Christians make are biblically innaccurate, also things like the Big Bang theory and the theory of evolution are just that, theories. They are plausible "what ifs", just as religion is.
No Christian can prove God to you. Jesus Christ said to the devil, you cannot test God. This applies to humanity also.
You are tryin to use inferior technology( our sense) to try to sense something that it cannot even begin to precieve, spirit. Our sense are known to be fallible, and easily fooled. Spirit is given to every Christian for their belief and action.
A Christians ministry is not to prove God, but to show people how to act on the promises and find the evidence experientially.
- JimLv 77 years ago
The Catholic Church is Babylon the mother of whores in Rev. 17:5 and is the beginning of Christianity which is a false fabricated religion! The Catholic Church more or less created the Bible which is obviously sometimes fabricated and contradicts itself a lot!
Jesus is not god nor did he die on the cross!
- 7 years ago
Siddartha, would it bother you if those children believed that if they didn't color eggs then they would be tortured for eternity?
That's the difference.
@Siddhartha. Niether do you (have a concept of the Christian Hell), as it doesn't exist. But the effects of its threat of existence are still a plague on humanity.
- Anonymous7 years ago
Sorry Wundt, but I bet all you get is snips like the ones you got now.
I'll be watching this one for fun!
Oh, and the Easter Bunny never has asked me for money. He can get by without my cash. apparently god can't. He needs a job!
- Anonymous7 years ago
How about prophecies about to come true.
4 FUTURE WARS (the catching away of true Christians happens just before this.
In the process of happening now…
Also look for Isaiah 17:1, 14 to happen any day now. (the destruction of Damascus by nuclear bomb) That will lead into the following.
1. Islamic war against Israel led by Russia and her armies. This army consists of Russia and the Islamic countries listed in Ezekiel 38:1-6. Ezekiel 39:1-12 describes that war where millions intend to attack Israel BUT GOD intervenes and kills all but 1/6th of them. Revelation 14:20 describes the place of battle as being filled with blood up to the horses' bridles for 184 miles. This war happens at the beginning of the Tribulation. Even now Russian warships are off the coast of Israel and Syria. Watch the headlines. http://www.armageddonangelsufos.com/
2. The River Euphrates dries up for the Kings of the East. (China, Korea etc) This is a 200 Million man army and they kill 1/3 of mankind.
3. Universal War…Armageddon where ALL nations are represented, led by the Antichrist go against Israel and Jesus as King of kings. All of this army is destroyed. Zechariah 14:2 –16
Zec 14:12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth (sounds a little like that scene from Raiders of the Lost Ark when the Nazis opened the Ark and were consumed away.)
4. The last war is at the end of the Millennial reign of Christ led by Satan who was loosed for a time to gather all rebels against the saints of God. They are destroyed by fire from Heaven and Satan is thrown into the Lake of Fire where the Antichrist and False Prophet are. This is when the Earth is then cleansed by fire while all earth inhabitants are at the Great White Throne Judgment, either those on trial or as witnesses. Those in their natural bodies who have survived the Tribulation will be in the audience.
At this time all the great oceans will be dried up. There will still be inland seas, lakes and rivers. We will then have the New Heavens and New Earth. The New Jerusalem will be on Earth and God will dwell with men. The New Jerusalem will be 1500 miles high, long and wide with plenty of room for all the people of God from Adam to the present time.
I have been studying the book of Daniel the past few weeks. In chapter 8 he talks about Alexander the Great and the 4 generals that ruled after his death. They ruled Syria, Greece, Turkey and Egypt.
The ANTICHIRST comes out of one of these countries. Think about it. The king of the North is Syria (Dan. Chap 11) the king of the South is Egypt. Antichrist is from Syria and rises to power there and then conquers Egypt. Antichrist is an apostate Jew.
- SacrificeLv 47 years ago
EDIT: Laodicea is right, but I would venture to say that his words were useless. The Jesus Christ you have in your mind is wrong. You don't know Him. This would be...ignorance. On YOUR part.
You obviously don't want to have God, so ignore His existence. It's your fate.
It's not our responsibility to change your heart. We only offer the guidance.